Celebrating Adversity

Shavasana Moments and Liminal Spaces (Episode 3)

• Clark Soriano, Julian Noursi, Jonathan Phair, Su Young Chun • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Shavasana: a transition where we feel "somehow, somewhere, something incredible is waiting  to be known*..." A conversation on yoga, climbing, liminal spaces and living with cancer.

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Produced by Clark Soriano and Julian Noursi.
Artwork by Clark Soriano.
Post-Production by Cozmic Cat
Original music by Cozmic Cat

Thank you Michelle Fanzo (for mentoring) and my darling wife.

Help us reach out and expand. Contribute to our Go Fund Me Page, A Podcast for People Living with Cancer

* Blaise Pascal, 17th-century French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer, and philosopher, 

Jonathan (00:00):

Straighten your legs. Step onto the top of the mat. Lie flat, just settle into the mat here, feeling the support of the ground underneath you & gravity above you, noticing the difference between tension that serves you and tension that does not. No effort needed -- the body at rest. See if you can stay with that moment of stillness, Shavasana,

Julian (00:26):

Shavasana, The final pose in yoga, the body at full rest, the corpse pose.

Clark (00:33):

Savashana is a great example of an in-between place. Philosophers call it the liminal space. An inner state and sometimes an outer situation where we begin to act in new ways. A transition, perhaps where we are neither certain or in-control. But we feel somehow, somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. Like the moment between dreaming and being fully awake, like the COVID 19 lockdown. Like having cancer.

INTRO SONG 

Julian (01:28):

Welcome to Episode 3 of Celebrating Adversity, A Podcast for People Living with Cancer. Episode 3 is a joyful conversation with two friends from Toronto:

·       Jonathan Phair, yoga instructor and co-founder of Phair Yoga and 

·       Su Young Chun, Chief Compliance Officer at Payfare Inc., co-founder and chair  of the non-profit Key Education Project and a part-time yoga and fitness coach.

 

Clark: 

Maybe we can start-off, by letting each other know about how we met.

Jonathan (02:05):

Sure. So Sue and I actually met right back when I first started teaching yoga full time. I started to offer a few classes for free at the Toronto music garden down by Queens Quay. And one of the people that showed up was this very feisty woman who I was surprised, kept coming back every week. And from that, we started to hang out a bit more and we started taking a few Instagram photos from time to time. And so that was kind of an interesting, just a weird blending of virtual world and real world. And of course at the beginning I was like, Oh, you know, like she'll come to a few classes and then like, I'll probably never see her again, but that was four years ago and we still hang out. Oh, I'd say a fair amount actually. Y

Sue (02:54):

Yeah, that was so strange. That's how we first connected. It was on Instagram. 

Clark (03:00):

Julian, how did you get to meet both of them

Julian:  (03:02):

Well, I lived at Liberty village. I went to a (nearby) yoga studio and they were my favorites. When Clark moved to Canada, I went with him to the same studio, yoga studio, and I left the area and Clark stayed on.

Clark (03:19):

Yeah, I was very reluctant at first. It was my first time to really go to a yoga class. It was just intimidating, seeing everyone down on the mat. But then, what I like about working with Jonathan --  your yoga was all about making people laugh. What  I remember most about yoga with Sue was her 108 Sun Salutations I was talking about the 108 Sun Salutations -- let's say every, you know, every five minutes or every set,  Su would read a letter from some of the Nicaraguans that her NGO was supporting. And that combination of moving with your body and being focused inside, and then listening to how our yoga was somehow being apart of what was happening in Nicaragua with supporting young people to discover new things about themselves. 

You know, for me, that was a prayer and I didn't know that 108 salutations was really a yoga prayer.  For me, I felt like it was a prayer and it was such a fantastic moment to actually bring together my body moving and my mind into something that I enjoy. It drew out my feelings.

And with Jonathan, I remember when we were climbing and he talked about breathing and he did something that we usually do in yoga-- Breathe in for three seconds, breathe out for six seconds and get into a rhythm.  And I was climbing and suddenly I was climbing so like what I call a ballerina on the rocks. There was a rhythm, there was grace. And for me that, that coming together of movement, of what I was feeling and thinking those were the moments I enjoy most about yoga, climbing, yoga and healing.

Clark (Narrating)  (05:26):

Feeling, thinking, healing. For me, climbing and yoga is all about getting into a new space for healing and learning. It’s what makes living with cancer a liminal space.

Su (05:42):

Yes. when I put together a  sequence or, you know, think about what to do, it usually starts with my own practice. And then I think, Oh, well, what would challenge me? What does my body need? And then I really hope that that connects with other people. 

But over time, I think I've learned a bit more to tune into the needs of the people and to either bring it up or slow it down. 

It's more sometimes I just think what's the craziest thing we could do. And then, uh, just try it, see if it'll work and, you know, if it doesn't, then, then what's the worst that happens. You just don't do it. But then often we surprise ourselves

Clark (Narrating)  (06:30):

Being diagnosed with cancer was a big surprise. Living with cancer was even a bigger surprise, as it offered a glimpse of the life changing opportunities that lay ahead. But the biggest surprise of all was having people like Jonathan, Su and Julian with me. All in this collective space. And we are all learning from each other.

Jonathan (07:01):

Su would you like to go first? 

Su:

Sure, sure. So I'll go first, 

You challenge me and you allow me to work harder and also you're really pleasant to be around. So, you know, when you first told me about your cancer and you know, you climb. You do hot yoga, it's incredible.

 I just thought, okay, let's just keep doing those things. And let's, let's have fun and keep pushing and seeing what the body is capable of. I think the body and the mind can do so much more than we allow it to. I think most people live within limitations that they set for themselves, whether that's mental or whether that's physical. 

So if you go back to the 108 sun salutations, and most of the class didn't do it. If you look at just the human bodies in the room, they're all physically capable of doing it. And I'm not saying don't take rest. Rest is important and you should listen to your body. But I think there's also something in certain people where that push and that drive when you challenge your body and you rise to meet that challenge, there is some sort of release that happens. 

And I know I find that physically, um, that's always been important to me. I think together through our sessions together. I think we challenge each other to reach that place where we're able to do more than we, we think we can.

Clark (Narrating)  (08:29):

The liminal space is an opportunity to stop talking about what I was losing because of cancer and begin speaking about what I was gaining.

Clark (08:43):

You know, what's really interesting about. It also becomes a source of creativity. It's the conversations between climbing that I learn a lot from. In fact, the whole idea of the podcast -- I wasn't really quite sure about how it would shape like. But then in between our climbing and yoga, I'd asked you a question and, you know, and slowly the idea of the podcast began to become sharper and more crystal clear. And, and it became less of a commercial venture. And more of something more like, how can I reach out to other people who might have similar stories? 

So for me, for me, what is important about, uh, uh, our relationship is the, is both the yoga and the workouts and the wonderful conversations we have in between. And I learned a lot about it. And I talk about, you know, multiple intelligences, you know, where, there’s intelligence that we learn from school –cognitive; or from management- emotional; or music or kinesthetic intelligence,which  just all about, about the body.

Speaker 4 (10:08)

And I think we're, we're exploring those 3 or 4 intelligence together as the climb, practice and speak. And it's really, really wonderful and really, really insightful. So, that's why I say this whole experience is healing for me because I think what is  going through me is not just something that's happening to my body. It's also going through my head and heart. So going through all of this is just such an important part of, of my own, uh, dealing with my own ghosts or dealing with my own, as Julian puts it in another podcast, my own demons. And it's important to have this exercise, to do this yoga and talk with you.

Jonathan (10:52):

So, uh, when I first met you, I remember, you know, we were at Pure and I think right away, you kind of said - I like to climb. And I was like, Oh yeah. Okay, cool. Like, I've, I've done a little, I've done a little bit of climbing, but you know, I'm still very much new and you're like, if you ever want to climb, like let me know. I'd like to go climbing, you know? And so I think like my first interactions with you, like I had no idea that you had cancer and that's, you know, like my interaction was man, this guy's like, he's a really dirtbacg that wants to climb all the time. That's, that's just a term of affection in the climbing world, uses. If I can just say,

Clark (11:37):

I love that.

Jonathan (11:41):

And so I've kind of just thought that, that was your jam. And I remember eventually you started talking with me a little bit more and I mentioned like, Hey, like, yeah, like I have cancer and it didn't really change our interaction. All I asked was, do you feel okay to keep practicing hot yoga? And you're like, yeah, like I love it. Okay, cool.

I think that when you, you sometimes talk about now defining stereotypes, it's not that I had the stereotype in my mind that people with cancer are weak because I know people that have gone through cancer and they are definitely not weak. But I, I think I did have the stereotype of someone that's undergoing treatment or someone that's, you know, is, is going through cancer. Maybe they should avoid certain activities. I had that, probably that stereotype in my mind. 

And so when Sue says that you're inspiring. Yeah. Like I think you've really inspired me to look at people that are going through health challenges, um, that I shouldn't be afraid to push them in class or to, to, you know, when we're climbing, like, be like, no, you can't take a break, keep going.

It's really interesting to get to know you better. And, and to, to kind of hear that the life that you've had,

Clark (13:00):

You know, but what I really like is the ideas that both of you share, like, I remember when we went out climbing onece. When we climbed for the first time, we were talking about a lot of things. You know, we, we went into our views of spirituality. You know, we went into our ideas of how we don't judge others. And yoga is not so much performing to others, but it's also about our deeper connection with yourself and what their body can do, what their body cannot do, what you don't know about, what you can do. And all those things that you want to talk about with others. Yeah. So somehow I found that, um, my experience with both of you is not just an experience of workouts and exercise. It's an experience of validating my own ideas about, you know, really, really fundamental things, ideas about living.  Ideas about caring for others, ideas about the sentient beings and dogs and animals that we love.

Jonathan (14:05):

For sure. I think like some of my favorites times I've spent with you during climbing -- we weren't even climbing, you know, like we were like setting stuff up or like packing stuff away and like talking about, you know, what's going on in our live --  

talking about big things, I don't want to say it's a lost art cause people, people do talk about big things, but it's rare. I do think that it's, it's a rare thing to have a friend that you talk about big things with, you know, as opposed to just talking about the weather or just talking about what your plans are for the weekend, but actually the small talk 

And you know what, there's, there's a place for that too. like just talking about nothing sometimes when you're having a day, you just want to have a drink and chat, but sometimes it's really nice to really dive in, you know, and, and really feel like you're talking about challenging things.

Speaker 4 (15:00):

So one of the things that I remember is when we talked about uncomfortable topics, it was a beautiful music on your radio. And I remember we were returning from climbing It was the song from Imogen. I suddenly blurted out -- that's the song that I want to be some in my eulogy. And I, at first I was very uncomfortable saying that or even talking about the fact that I have a list off songs that I want to hear or I can't hear it,  is such a empowering thing to do , such a liberating thing to do. Not many people want to talk about those things.

Jonathan (15:43):

Four years ago, my sister passed away from cancer. And so that's one of my first, really personal connections to really being exposed to what, what cancer does to families. And even with my family, like, it's, it's not like we talked that much about that type of thing, you know? And, and because it's, it's a really tough topic. So I felt really appreciative to you that you felt comfortable enough with me to, to bring that up and to talk about like real things, you know, that's, it's, it's one of those things where, um, I think you do have that moment, of like, is this an overshare, right? Of like, of, of like, should I talk about this? And honestly, like I think more and more, I realized, and it's because of yoga as well, but I feel this way more and more, I realized that these are the conversations that we need to have.

And these conversations are, are what guide us out of like dark places, you know? And like, if we don't have these conversations, we end up in really, really difficult places. And, you know, I think I see it physically in people as well. Like the reason why, when people first come to yoga, I really see it as like, it's not just a physical thing. Like they're manifesting real mental struggle, emotional struggle in their bodies. And I'll see that like, as they start to move and open up a little bit more, you'll see that in their mental state, in their emotional state as well, which I think that's one of the things that really drew me to the yoga path in the first place.

Clark: (Narrating)  (17:21):

Taking people out of dark places is not just a physical thing. It is also mental and emotional, and often times today, moral. And perhaps it is not about yoga. It is whatever gives us the space to contemplate and to bring our bodies, minds and hearts together. But there is one thing that is clear about this episode. Jonathan, Julian and Su have become one of my many guides through this liminal space. What makes this process interesting and exciting is searching and finding one’s own guide, or guides. Which might be a friend, a colleague or a teacher.

Jonathan (18:16):

: If you are coming back keep the stillness in the body and bring the awareness back and feel our conscious awareness flood our body. Really noticing those big differences, those subtle differences that the practice has made apparent. Start to lengthen each inhale and exhale. Bringing “prana” back to the body, not just air but energy. 

As you lengthen your breath here, you may feel an energizing sensation, a grounding sensation spread through the length of your spine, your arms, your legs. Follow that sensation. Begin to move your fingers, move your toes. Turn your head side to side. You can inhale. Find a stretch here, reaching the arms back behind you. Legs out in front of you. Stretch tall and exhale to soften into the mat. One more time. Inhale to stretch it out.  Then carefully bend your knees. Bring the soles of the feet to the floor. This time. Rolling to left side body, push into the right palm and come all the way up into a seated position. Sit cross-legged or kneeling with the rest of the palms face up or face down and close the eyes. Notice what has shifted and changed over the course of our practice today.  Place the left hand over the heart, the right hand over the belly. Inhale to fill all the way up space. Take up some space, Hold the breath in at the top. Take an extra sip of air. Open your mouth, sigh it out Place your palms in prayer heart center, thumbs resting on the sternum. Visit your intention. I Invite you to carry this with you off your mat and share it with everyone you love. Thank you for practicing today, Namaste.

Clark (Narrating) (20:04):

Thank you for listening to the Episode 3 Shavasana moments -- the first segment of a two-part series on yoga, climbing and living with cancer. We will continue the conversation on liminal spaces in Episode 4.

Julian:

We hope you are enjoying Celebrating Adversity, A Podcast for people living with cancer. Help us reach out. Share the podcast. Support our GoFundMe campaign and tune in for the next episode. We also recommend that you

·       Listen to our episode playlist

·       Try the Yin Yoga and Sound Healing session on the PhairYoga YouTube Channel, and 

·       Read about Nicaraguan scholars on the Key Education Project Website

You can find the links on the Episode Description

 

OUTRO